Gungor. Vicky Beeching. Mark Driscoll. David Yonggi Cho. What do all these names have in common?
Controversy.
Of course, a blogger like myself could not go silent on these issues.
When situations like this arise, we are challenged, confused, disillusioned. We often resort to bashing, freaking out, and being disgusted (or excited) when a Christian celebrity falls.
When I think of the aforementioned names, I think of children of God who followed the call of God, were used mightily by God, and are being honest with their struggle.
Mistakes have been made, power has been abused. But that’s no excuse to write people off.
An Issue of Worship
Allow me to issue a challenge – to you, to me. This is about worship. When situations like this arise, I wonder who we are worshiping, what we’re prioritizing. Our worship culture so often becomes a consumer game of digesting the latest, greatest songs and resources, idolizing the people who carry the gifts of God.
The problem with idolizing the carriers of God’s anointing is that they weren’t meant to hold the weight of such admiration. It wasn’t made for man, but for God alone.
When they fall, our spirits fall because we’ve placed too much stock in a human. When they reveal a deep seated belief you didn’t expect them to have, your world can be rocked to its foundation.
Of course, this is a big deal because these leaders have massive, global influence. We wonder what effect their belief or sin will have on others.
Truth is, we can’t look to the conduit of God’s gifts as our source, but to Christ. Then, we are free to receive the ministry of those we don’t agree with. We can bless and encourage and pray for those with contrary beliefs without tearing down, because it’s not our job to police the church.
I don’t agree with Vicky’s life choices and wouldn’t make them my own. Gungor’s perspective on the Bible is a little troubling. But that doesn’t force me to choose between love and hate, compassion and spite.
Rather, I can respect and reach out.
Criticism & The Cross
We can still sing Vicky Beeching’s worship songs. We can be strengthened and inspired by her powerful intellect.
We can still draw near to Christ through Gungor’s music. We can still be influenced by Mark Driscoll’s preaching. No matter how imperfect they all are, it doesn’t negate their ministry.
Honestly, we all encounter struggles and face questions without easy answers. Few of us are bold enough to speak up and say “I’m struggling with my sexuality. I’m struggling with the reality of God. I struggle with the love of money.”
What these people invite us into is recognizing our own humanity and bringing them into the context of conversation. Think about the thousands of Christians around the world who have questions, struggles, and doubts. If we as the church won’t allow their questions to be heard, where is the best place?
We all have questions. Imperfection is part of our nature on this earth. Let your criticism of others be shrouded in prayer for their well being.
Let’s look to the cross. Let’s make the person of Christ our hero, our daily source. Consider the possibility that your greatest hero of faith could disappoint you with a belief they have. Stay rooted in Christ and pray for those you look up to.
I’d love to hear from you and continue the conversation.
What has been your response to all this controversy? What do you believe? Let’s have a conversation here in the comments. Blog posts are always better when you comment. You can leave a comment by clicking here.
[ois skin=”Beyond Sunday 2″]
Only Jesus will never let us down. He is the only leader worthy of being put on a pedestal.
So true, Zach. Love it!
I do not usually pay much attention to these controversies. Life is too short and too many people need Jesus for me to waste time knocking someone else’s speck instead of my own plank. My only thought is maybe spend less time, celebrities , confessing to man and more time getting it straight with Jesus. Just saying, works for me.
A few things:
1. This just reminds us all that 100% transparent accountability is 100% necessary. We all need people in our lives to hold us to the truth. None of us are immune to failure.
2. People love to push close to the line (see Andy Stanley’s Guardrails series) but condemn anyone who slips up and crosses the line like they have never crossed the line and been forgiven.
3. Our love is SO conditional. We so easily forget that God sent His Son because we’re all disgusting sinners. If we are to follow in that example, who are we to do anything but love and forgive those who also sin?
4. The people who condemn these leaders for making money or whatever are about to do the same thing they condemned these leaders for doing. They are getting blog clicks and tv time and speaking invites because they are just like the secular media blowing things up to elevate themselves and lower the person who failed.
5. If we banished every leader/person who screwed up the Church of Jesus Christ wouldn’t exist. Our church discipline approach is terrible at best. Condemnation is never the answer. Bashing homosexuals is never the answer. Love is the answer. That involves a call to repentance. Not yelling down someone’s throat, but speaking the truth in love. Forgiveness is the answer – just as we have been forgiven. This is one of the many reasons why people hate Christians. We don’t do this well. When someone fails we get an extremely pharisaical attitude instead of following Christ’s example.
Joe, great thoughts. Love the depth. Much to take away. We are so quick to lose ourselves in finger pointing and judgement. Definitely a tension to walk – defending truth without being a jerk 😉
I really struggle with issues like these, especially homosexuality. Problem is that there seems to be no shame in “coming out.” No remorse, no, “I am struggling, please help me, forgive me.” I have no problem when ministers fall. We are all human and make mistakes, but I cannot seem to accept these people who have no remorse for what they choose to do. But then now I am sounding extremely unloving. I don’t mean to be, but where do we draw the line? I know we should love love love, but it feels as though I am accepting their behavior when I do. (honest struggles)
Cheryl – step back 50 years or so. The issue at that time was divorcees in positions of authority in the Church. I’m 42 and can remember members of my family leaving churches because the new youth/music/associate pastor hired was divorced. It was a major issue for a lot of Christians. Today, I think you’d have a difficult time finding a church without at least one divorcee on staff. I’m sure there are plenty of them, but they aren’t in the majority. At least not in the part of the world I live in.
My point – the struggles you mentioned are nothing new to Christians; only the topic has changed. When I was a kid, divorced people were ‘major sinners’. Today, eh. It’s not a big deal because it is so common. Like divorce did, homosexuality will eventually become a non-issue to the majority of Christian’s. That doesn’t mean either scenario is ‘right’ or ‘acceptable’, just that all things evolve over time.
That’s just my opinion though….
Damon
Cheryl, I hear you. And many feel your same sentiment. There’s a sense of outrage and disgust that is attached with homosexuality that makes it seem like a greater sin than any other sin. Sometimes I have to slow myself down and say, “Just because I don’t struggle with this doesn’t mean the struggle isn’t very real for others.” That gives me more compassion for those people.
Just sharing.. For me i realized that living in Grace means living with Jesus in every moment… Sounds too simplistic and cliche but i have been born in a Christian home, been baptized in the Holy Spirit, speaks in tongues and member of our worship team and yet many times i question if God really exists. I have done bad secret sins in my life and it was in the moment of my sinfulness that i found Jesus again and not through my lifetime effort of trying to be righteous. Jesus conscious rather than me and sin conscious. Great site, always gives encouragement to me. Keep it up David… God with us always…
Seth, I really appreciate your honesty here. It’s powerful when we as the church can be honest with our questions and struggles rather than hiding them and placing our pious self forward. I love what you said – stay “Jesus conscious” rather than “me and sin conscious”. Powerful things happen when we lift our eyes to Christ and live that way.
“The problem with idolizing the carriers of God’s anointing is that they weren’t meant to hold the weight of such admiration.“
Here your statement is contradictory. If it’s “God’s anointing” then how can they not hold that weight? Plus can you give a Biblical reference for the “carriers of God’s anointing”?
“We can bless and encourage and pray for those with contrary beliefs without tearing down, because it’s not our job to police the church.”
If it’s not our job to “police the church,” who’s is it? Christ said in the Matthew 7 from the Sermon on the Mount, 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
A few verse later He says, “15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
If we are not to judge what is going on with the statements and actions of brothers and sisters in Christ then why would Christ say these things?
“I don’t agree with Vicky’s life choices and wouldn’t make them my own. Gungor’s perspective on the Bible is a little troubling. But that doesn’t force me to choose between love and hate, compassion and spite. Rather, I can respect and reach out.”
Vicky’s “life choices” are called sin. Gungor’s “perspective” on the Bible is heresy. If you want to love them and show compassion to them and “reach out” then call them to repentance. Share the Gospel with them so that their hearts would turn from sinful behavior and be reconciled and restored.
“We can still draw near to Christ through Gungor’s music. We can still be influenced by Mark Driscoll’s preaching. No matter how imperfect they all are, it doesn’t negate their ministry.”
What would it take to negate their ministry? Mark Driscoll’s character is in shambles, by his own doing, and thus disqualifies him from being a preacher. Paul writes to Titus, “For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[f] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” Titus 1:7-9 ESV. Paul is specifically talking about elders but the elders were the pastors.
And to use music from Beeching and Gungor within your church is not wise for we are to protect the church of Christ. If they repent then by all means re-instituting their music in the church would be welcomed.
“Honestly, we all encounter struggles and face questions without easy answers.”
Totally agree. But when we do not call out our brothers and sisters in Christ when we see sinful, unrepentant behavior we are not loving them.
Hey Judd, I appreciate your candid response. As it relates to Vicky’s life decisions and Gungor’s theology, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be “confronted” or are not in need of repentance. The problem is that everyone in the body of Christ across social media feels the need to take shots at them and call them to repentance when they haven’t listened, or cared, or are in relationship. I would hope that those who are close with them are helping them in their journey.
As for receiving their ministry, I can receive ministry through a broken vessel because I am one. We have all sinned. But sure, everything needs to be judged according to Scripture. We can’t just accept everything because someone says it is true. But I can still sing the song “Healer” even though it was written by a guy who lied about his cancer. I can sing Vicky Beeching’s songs because they are beautiful and the theology is sound. Truth is truth wherever you find it.
Thanks for pushing the conversation, Judd!
Thanks for responding. I pray that there are Christians in their lives that can speak Biblical truth to them and that they hear and repent. I’m sure there are many Christians who are upset that are lashing out at them and that must stop.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
If we aren’t loving towards other brothers and sisters in Christ then Christ isn’t glorified. Showing love is preaching the Gospel, inviting believers to repent and turn from sinful behavior, helping when we’re hurting, feeding them when they are hungry.
Also, we are to hold each other accountable. Paul uses direct language about this:
1 Corinthians 5:11-13(ESV)11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
You’re correct. It’s very serious. There are eternal implications for us all and that is why we must proclaim Christ and His truth.
Judd – you’ve been very blunt in your response (which is great), so I hope you’re OK with an equally blunt response.
“If we are not to judge what is going on with the statements and actions of brothers and sisters in Christ then why would Christ say these things?”
In my opinion, ‘judge’ is the incorrect word and line of thinking. Judging insinuates passing sentence. In the passage in Matthew you cited, Christ says nothing about judging others. He is talking about correction, exhortation, and counseling. He is encouraging us to be open with each other and working through difficulties/issues. However, as He points out, we cannot do that if we have issues in our own lives. When we consider that we are all sinful creatures, we have to understand that what Christ told us to do in verse 5 is actually impossible – we cannot remove the plank from our own eye. If we could, we would have no need of a Savior.
The type of ‘judging’ you’ve described is, in my opinion, a microcosm of everything wrong with Christianity today. So many are more concerned with making sure others are doing what we think is right than watching where our own feet/hands/mouths lead us.
“Vicky’s “life choices” are called sin. Gungor’s “perspective” on the Bible is heresy.”
This is your opinion, based on your understanding and interpretation of Scripture, and that is perfectly fine. However, that doesn’t make you “right”. I know a lot of people that state the Bible is “infallible and inerrant”, even though it makes no claims to being either. ‘Inspired by God’ does not equate to ‘perfection’. Gungor’s statements are simply his opinion and, like yours, are more than acceptable. Neither is right or wrong, just different. The rigidity you seem to hold on certain topics is, in my opinion, what pushes more people out of our churches than welcomes them.
There are so many sins, as outlined by Scripture, that are ‘acceptable’ in today’s world. Even the most ardent Christian is guilty of numerous of them. As I pointed out in a reply above, divorce was a major sin 50 years ago and frowned on greatly by evangelical churches. Today, no one really cares. The vast majority of churches would be out of business if they enforced everything labeled “sin” in the Bible. And, in my opinion, that is exactly where the church will end up with your line of thinking. Call it what you like, but history shows us that the church is more than amicable to bend the rules to the whims of society. Agreeing or disagreeing with it won’t change the fact that it will happen. You’ll simply end up as someone no one wants to talk to about Christianity because you condemn too many things. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that is a good thing. It’s simply a basic fact of how the church, and Christianity as a whole, evolves over time.
In my opinion, pushing away people like Vicky and Gungor will do more harm to the church in the long run. You’re more than welcome to stand up and upon your principles, morals and ethics. My fear is that you’ll be standing by yourself before too long. If you’re OK with that, great. Live on, my friend.
Damon
Personally, I’m concerned with the progression of thought that the Bible is just some big “shades of gray” book rather that a manual for living that clearly outlines what is acceptable and unacceptable to God. But we don’t want to think of God as black and white because that make Him egotistical and if we agree, we are the same way. You left out the part of the passage in 2 Timothy that says Scripture is “profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness”. Even if Scripture is not “perfect”, how do we know what parts to throw out and what to keep? Does it depend on the cultural trend of that time period? The bottom line is that when it comes to sin, God looks at our heart, not our actions. There’s a big difference between accepting your own homosexuality and saying, “Yes, I’m a homosexual but I realize it’s not part of God’s original design and displeases Him. I know God accepts me just as I am but I still struggle and realize I may until I see Him face to face. Until that day, I will call on the Holy Spirit’s strength to turn from my sin even though I will make mistakes.” That’s the kind of humility God is looking for and so should we. The problem is that it’s hard and people don’t want life to be hard. They only want to be happy. BTW – There are many church leaders who still do care about divorce. To me, it’s a big deal. But again, it depends on the heart response of the person. If they justify their actions, it will limit their ability to be used of God. If they repent, that’s a whole different story. Maybe Judd and I will be standing alone but I’m willing to take that risk. The church needs to be protected from false teaching. That being said, I’m still going to take the “good” from Vicky, Mark and Gungor even if they don’t repent the way I think they should. And at the risk of sounding “holier than thou” I will pray that the Lord will bring people around them who will speak truth into them so that their influence on the church will be in line with the Truth of Scripture.
Cliff, I really appreciate your balanced response. There’s a pastoral sensitivity in what you say. I just read 1 Corinthians 13 this morning and was reminded about the importance of love. We can know the Scriptures front and back. We can call people out on their sin. We can be the most gifted person on earth. But without love, we have nothing. Was a great reminder this morning as we talk through these issues. Thanks!
I have zero issue with Gungor, Vicky, or Mark. Like me, they are imperfect people living in what is obviously and unfortunately, a very judgmental world.
Being a Christian has nothing to do with living by a set of rules, especially when those rules are a list of ‘do’ and ‘do not’ items defined by a church (or group of churches, ie a convention). We are sinful creatures and as such, it is impossible for us to do many of the things mentioned in the Bible. For example, Christ repeatedly told people, “Go, and sin no more”. Uh, we can’t. Even if you are washed in the Blood and have been made a new creature, it is impossible for you to NOT sin anymore. So how are we supposed to take what Jesus said literally? We can’t. Does that mean we toss out everything because it is impossible for us to take this directive literally? Of course not. It simply means that, when we’re looking at a particular topic, the main question becomes:
Does it change why He came, what He did, and what He’s going to do?
Gungor thinking that Noah and the Ark might be more folklore than an actual event has ZERO impact on this question. Vicky’s sexual preference has ZERO impact on this question. Mark’s decisions have ZERO impact on this question. Me personally having a LOT of questions about the chronology of events surrounding the birth of Christ outlined in Matthew and Luke has ZERO impact on the fact that He did come.
I’m baffled by the reactions people, especially Christians, have to topics of the day that have NOTHING to do with who Jesus is, why He came and what He is going to do. In my opinion, we need to stick with the basics of what Christianity truly is and not worry about the idiosyncrasy’s of daily life. They truly do not matter.
Thanks for allowing me to rant…
Damon
Damon, you’re rant is read and received. We are all sinners. We all deserve death and the anguish of hell. Paul quotes the psalms in Romans 3:10-11, “none is righteous; no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.”
God is loving but He is also just. If a murderer kills your family do you expect no justice? Would you want the judge to say, “You’re free to go. There is no judgment?”
Jesus said in Matthew 5, 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”
Jesus equates hate with murder. We have all hated, lusted and lied. Our judgment should be hell.
However,
John 3:16-21 says,
16 “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
What blessed news that we have a Savior who offers forgiveness and makes a way for us to spend eternity with Him.
“God is loving but He is also just. If a murderer kills your family do you expect no justice? Would you want the judge to say, “You’re free to go. There is no judgment?””
Exactly! God is the judge, not us. We have no right to judge ANY other person. Yes, there are elected/appointed officials to judge civic and criminal matters in and of this earth. Even they are not qualified nor intended to judge spiritual issues though.
To me, Scripture clearly states that God is our sole judge. It’s just that simple…
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (ESV)
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
And every church in the world would be empty if we did this. As with my previous example, there is no way to ‘literally’ do this, outside of being a hermit and not associating with anyone whatsoever. Which is why I have no issue with someone being less than perfect.
I hope you realize that this type of attitude, one of not associating with fellow believers that may have slipped until they get their act together, is one of the primary reasons non-Christians have so little desire to dawn the doors of a church… if we ostracize our own, what in the world would we do to them? Why would a non-believer want to submit themselves to that type of scrutiny? The answer is simple – they wouldn’t, so they don’t.
It amazes me that Christians go out of their way to find creative ways to keep people away. It baffles me.
Damon & Judd, I appreciate you guys being respectful of each other’s views and expanding this conversation. This is why I love blogging. Thanks for sharing!
JESUS CELEBRITIES
I have no idea who these people are–what they did or what they do.
It is the whole notion of “Christian Celebrities” that troubles me.
The Contemporary Christian Music movement is based upon this vicarious sharing of perceived power and association with the “successful” and “famous”.
It is a most daunting industry with wheels a turnin and ego’s a churnin.
Did I mention dollars a flowing?
All the “look at me” mess we have in the church in world today started in some part with my generation and me—
We genuinely took the simple-minded and gullible for a ride.
Our parents told us that “rock and roll” was evil. So, we got smart. We “Christianized” it.
We put Jesus words to all we loved in music so that we could listen to it “legally”. Most of this music was simple love poetry with a beat and chord structure and instrumentation we connected with. If we had just been honest and let this music alone for what it was; listened to it and enjoyed it for what it was just as we looked at art and found simple beauty…
But no, we had to convert it and practice trickery to get our way. We started Jesus Rock, Jesus Jazz, Easy Listening, God Thrash, Jesus Head-Bang, Country Gospel and as of late Christian POP. Jesus watches American Idol too and secretly hopes we will continue our own version for Him called Modern Worship.
And we have taught those that follow quite well.
Our disciples now have Christian Aerobics, Christian Doctors, Christian Judo, Lawyers, food and medicine–my lands–we hope to “Christianize” the world. This has become our cheap evangelism. It is why so much shallowness and deceit are pervasive within the church. This is why we raise personalities above principle. This is why the church of the contemporary is seemingly always seeing itself in the mirror, only to walk away and apply more make-up, instead of being honest with and before God and His people. We refuse to put an end to the carnival of egos and “artistry” of the retail Jesus mockery in what has become an industry of financial windfall. Show me the man or woman who will say “no more” once they are feeding on this giant pool of carnal pablum and I will show you the rare soul who said, “enough Lord.” Don’t wait on the Praise-Me Bands and their producers and record labels and groupies to lead the way into integrity.
We have merely taken the bottle of pills filled with powerful narcotics (music) and changed the label on the outside to read Tylenol. Oh no, we would never tell people that these things are addictive and destructive. Taken properly, they can help people. But the prescriptions are written by wolves in sheep clothing. These shysters are lovers of money and pleasure-more than lovers of God and their clients are not patients at all, they are pawns whose own greed and insecurity draw them inside to the lair. Now they are addicts and the drug dealers are very convincing in their phony Jesus gospel.
Why has the church lost so much of its Christ-like goodness and influence in this world? Because we are so busy pumping up personalities and paying for their success that Christianity has taken a back seat. We have turned praise of God into an industry and one benign performance after another.
We should not be surprised when our powerful heroes show their true colors. Truth be told, our colors are an arrogant match by virtue of association and support.
Where have all our theological poets gone? Where are those who have lived life and walked through fires that refine and they emerge as significant nobodies who refuse to pen a autograph for any idolotrous would be? They have written (and still do write) but alas, the audience of worldly ear has turned. The market has shifted to 5 chord guitar wonders who copy cat the very music they condemn as “secular” into stardom because there are those who chose substitute for real.
What is the solution for “Celebrityism”?
1- Tell Christians to enjoy their music and music personalities. I personally listen to, play and enjoy at least 12 varieties /styles of music. None of them mention Jesus as a justification for their existence.
2- Tell Christians to enjoy a similar variety in food, clothing, dance, art, poetry. Unless any of these embody anti-Christ themes, enjoy them and abandon the attempts at converting them. There is no such thing as “Christian music” or Christian musician any more than “Christian medicine” or a “Christian Pharmacist. Either can be used in a Christ-like way or abused but neither can be transformed into something that doesn’t exist. (without a magician) A Christian can certainly be a musician or a pharmacist.
3- Tell Christians to enjoy the music at the baseball park and not to go to the management threatening them with boycott if they won’t play gospel hymns and praise music for their enjoyment at the “Christian baseball game”.
4- Tell Christians who attend a public time devoted to the Worship of God to relish music and text that does not remind them of the base-ball game they attended or the world they live in, but rather gives them something of respite and other-worldliness.
5–Pray for Elders who are mature, biblically minded and unafraid to purge and protect the church from opportunists and self-promoters along with their latest CD’s and wares. This means securing a level of musicianship and spiritual maturity in leadership that is as rare today as two year Hollywood marriage to the same person.
I took my son to hear the outstanding jazz guitarist John Schofield the other day. What a great concert. My son is a drummer and has a deep appreciation for the drummer, Bill Stewart. We also listen to music from nearly every period (our favorite is Renaissance) As great as so much of this music is, neither of us are desirous to paint Jesus all over it and take it to church for the “Holy and sanctified” version that we insist is the latest and greatest for God; much less insist that everyone like it and sing it exclusively.
We love the pipe organ or a fine electronic version. How nice is the clarinet, flute, guitar, oboe, trumpet, drums and cymbals, etc. when played well by one who loves Jesus more than their name in the program and their face in lights. We love well crafted texts and tunes that take us beyond praise into the depth of theology and discipleship. Some of these are called hymns, others spiritual songs. We love acappella. Simple music in keys for men is so nice. We love not having to stare at a band or group of singers faking hard to be real and enjoying the lime light way too much. Our church has all the musicians back and to the sides as an appropriate symbol reflecting their role in worship—Get out of the way and stay out of the way!
Celebrities and those who create them have real difficulties with all this “putting aside of self”. Celebrity for Jesus does not go away. It remains as an unwelcomed pest until those who feed it determines that doing so is deadening to the church. Every heard of “starved for attention”? That’s right, it’s a childhood thing.
“We must stop acting like children. We must not let deceitful people trick us by their false teachings, which are like winds that toss us around from place to place. Love should always make us tell the truth. Then we will grow in every way and be more like Christ, the head of the body. Christ holds it together and makes all of its parts work perfectly, as it grows and becomes strong because of love.” Ephesians 4:14-16
Glenn W. Harrell 8-19-2014
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your honesty and I am in complete agreement with you. Music in Church is important to help set the atmosphere for worship. Celebrating Christ as Lord and savior is to be part of corporate worship. I pray that we can return to the dignity of worshipful music without the clatter and clutter of the rock bands.. Thanks again.
“We can still sing Vicky Beeching’s worship songs. We can be strengthened and inspired by her powerful intellect. We can still draw near to Christ through Gungor’s music. We can still be influenced by Mark Driscoll’s preaching. No matter how imperfect they all are, it doesn’t negate their ministry.”
Really? With all do respect, where is the discernment? Why should the Body of Christ continue to sing Vicky’s songs now that we know she rejects the Word of God? The same for Gungor. Or any other Christian that purposely picks and chooses what they like in the Bible and throws away the rest. That’s the problem, thinking it’s ‘Their’ ministry.
Is there a shortage of music that Christians have to compromise and put money in the pockets of ‘artists’ who reject the basic tenets of Christianity? Liberals (compromisers) in the church feel like it’s a good time to show they are ready to please man and the world. It seems they have a lot of people who will embrace them.
Why shouldn’t Mark Driscoll just go sit in the back and worship? Even if he is considered a good teacher, are you saying he is irreplaceable? One of the problems with celebrity worship is that the church is now reliant on pastors and bands instead of the Holy Spirit.
This creates confusion in the Body and rewards bad behavior. This is moral relativism. What’s right or wrong is now subject to what an individual thinks and ‘feels’. Our culture is crumbling because we are rejecting God’s standards and lowering it to our standards. Why can’t we be loving and compassionate while remaing true to God? Jesus warned us they would persecute us for following Him. Not much to persecute if you embrace the world. Yes, we are all sinners, but that doesn’t mean we now embrace it and celebrate it. Or does it?
^ This
I would say that we should only consider using someone like Beeching’s or Gungor’s material only after they have confessed their sin and shown a sign of repentance.
That’s the difference between those two and Mark Driscoll who has acknowledged what he did was wrong and sinful and is asking for forgiveness. We should always be supporting people who acknowledge their sin, ask for forgiveness, and repent.
Supporting someone like Beeching or Gungor when we know they are in error would only add money to their pockets and show them that they have our support in spreading their sin further.
I hear what you’re saying. But I don’t think Beeching or Gungor are out to exploit the church for more money. I can still appreciate their art similar to how I can visit a nice restaurant and enjoy a steak prepared by a non-Christian. Or how can I go to the movies and appreciate a film created by people of different beliefs. Sure, there will be things I disagree with, but there will also be echoes of God’s glory in it as we’re all created in the image of God and have the capacity to create in the image of our Creator.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do that. There’s a difference between going to a restaurant or watching a movie and using an unrepentant leader’s guidance as a tool to sing praises to the King of Kings, though.
Thanks David…a very timely and needed post!!!
Yep – choosing to follow Jesus means choosing to lead with Grace, Humility, and Forgiveness.
I’m told that Isaac Watts held to an arguably heretical view on the Trinity, so should we stop singing ‘When I survey’? If a song is true, does it become less true because of non sequiter association with something else the writer thinks?
Thanks David for your thoughtful post. I’ve been thinking about how a more robust application of and focus on incarnational Christian community might be a helpful corrective to social media tribal flame wars. It’s not like we’re the first generation of protestants to have major theological differences, but we might be the first to make it so brutally public..
“If a song is true, does it become less true because of non sequiter association with something else the writer thinks?”
Where do you draw the line then?
This is an extreme example: What if a professing, unrepentant atheist writes an awesomely biblical song or entire album of praise to cash in and widen their musical market to the Christian community? Should we all by tickets to their concerts and buy their albums because it may say something true? Is their belief something that you’re interested in funding?
I would, yes. Because I believe what Satan meant for evil, God can use for good. Take man-made garbage in the hands of a surrendered follower of Christ and who knows what God can do? I know. I’m a product of that.
Take what I say with a grain of salt. Like all of us I am still not perfected. But I think we need to understand the the power and anointing of a moment of worship isn’t as much on the writer of the song but on the worshipper engaged in the worship. The validity of worship is based on the heart of the worshipper. So if you can connect with God singing those songs, sing them, if you can’t get over what happened and they pull your mind away from God then don’t, but their sin doesn’t invalidate God nor does it invalidate the worship that those songs (which He inspired them to write) inspire.
As to what they did, I believe that we can admonish them to live lives worthy of the Gospel (Phil 1:27) but we need to be careful that when it comes to the things that they did wrong, we are admonishing them and not each other. I hope that they have brothers and sisters in Christ who are speaking life and correction into them. That is what the body of Christ is for. We are warned of judging but we are not forbidden to do it, unless we are judging those outside of the faith (which we are strictly forbidden to do) just do it wisely, graciously and justly. Then restore lovingly. Take a good look at the entirety of 1 Cor 5. God is the ultimate judge but we have an obligation to spur one another on to love and good works. That is the responsibility of the Body of Christ. That is what it is meant when we are to bear one another’s burdens. But we must be careful to not condemn but restore lovingly not just cast them out and say “there you deserve it”. Paul himself states that he passed judgment on the matter already. But judging means determining, according to scripture, what is right and once that decision has been made how to lovingly restore the people who have fallen. A part of Christianity is do’s and do not’s, it isn’t limited to them and we aren’t redeemed by them, but sin is sin and it still grieves God, not because you don’t do what He says, but because those things ultimately cause you pain and lead you away from the blessings of God. We are all sinners but we are all redeemed and are charged with helping one another to live as such.
Also, understand that the music industry is out to make money, and that is okay, it is a business. I will not fault a business for acting like a business and I favor honoring people who have spent a lot of time and money following what they believe God had called them to do. But non of the “celebrity musicians” put themselves on a pedestal. Non of them created their own celebrity. We did and God allowed it, but like every one (including and maybe especially pastors) they need to guard our hearts and surround themselves with people that can help them discern when they are straying from God’s desired path. What Vicky believes grieves my heart, because you can’t take an honest look at scripture and say that God condones the lifestyle, Mark has already repented for His attitude on numerous occasions, Gungor has questions, perhaps those would have be best posed to their pastor or another brother and sister in Christ rather than placed out their in the internet. But we can look at their statements and respond to the statement, saying that isn’t in line with scripture, but it doesn’t invalidate the songs that they have written or the worship that those songs inspired.
Ultimately, we can’t condemn people for failing but we also can’t condone it. We need to help each other live righteously. It isn’t love to allow someone to live in sin, it isn’t love to simply turn around and ignore it simply because we have made mistakes as well, it is love to say, listen I’ve been there, I’ve done that, you shouldn’t go down that road it will lead you away from the blessings of God. We can judge that and we should, otherwise we sit by and watch each other destroy ourselves while sitting in silence afraid that people will think we are too judgmental. I care too much for my brothers and sisters in Christ whether they are on a national stage or working in the background to allow them to accept the lesser life of sin when they could live in the freedom that comes from pressing on toward the mark of the high call of God.
Again your worship is not validated or invalidated because of the failings of the people that write the music it, it is validated or invalidated by your own heart. Your worship is the appropriate response to the presence and power of God and only you can invalidate it.
Oh, and thanks David. Love you bro, love the site. Keep doing what you are doing.
Thank you for reminding me to look to the cross in front of people. I want to have Christ’s compassion instead of human judgement, but I do struggle to accomplish it.
You’re post helped me.
Theologians argue and debate points of dogma, a myriad of different viewpoints. All taken from the Word, all based on their understandings and interpretations. We are not living in a world that is flat, where children are stoned for being naughty or where walking and chariots were largely the only transportation available. Much have changed – we know more, understand more, but more than anything else, the essential message of God’s love and its motivation has not changed. Indeed, a tree is known by its fruit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Galasians lists fruit that cannot be faked consistently, so let one’s heart discern by the fruit of love, peace, longsuffering etc. Let not another’s understanding of Scripture be a hindrance. We have enough dogmatic differences – lets not lose the love and miss the point. Its all about Him, not about us. Whosoever we may be, in all the wonderful colours and ways He created us. thanks for reading. Love your blog David
Yoona, you’re right. We all have different interpretations of God’s Word. The problem that I see is a tendency to keep the “love” parts that make us all feel good about ourselves and disregard the “truth” parts that tend to make Jesus a little less palatable. That’s why we have to ask for God’s understanding daily. If we try to lean on our own understanding or trust our own hearts (which is described in Jeremiah as ‘deceitful above anything else’), it’s only going to lead us astray. Yes, it’s all about Him and His love! But love cannot disregard Truth. Are you saying that God’s love doesn’t change but since the world has, God’s definition of sin has, too? Of course, many of the “sins” laid out in the Old Testament law are not applicable for us today, but we still must seek God’s wisdom based on ALL the teachings of Jesus and his disciples, not just the “love” parts. Once we do, we will realize that God’s Word cannot and does not contradict itself. Truth and love must work in tandem. There must be a balance. We can love and still not agree. Do I agree with declarations made by Gungor, Beeching and Driscoll? No. Do I love them as a child of God and will I take the good from what they’ve offered? Yes. Why do I need to say how proud I am that these people stood up for what they believed in order to prove my love for them? Having experienced the grace of God in my life DAILY, I know how costly it is! That’s why I’m saddened when I see God’s Word being handled like a White House document open for interpretation. It breaks my heart to think that one day an entire generation may find out that they believed in a God whose attributes were picked and chosen by someone like me. Oh Lord, grant us wisdom to understand the Truth of Your Word without the interference of our own humanness.
Cliff – I appreciate everything you’ve said, in this post and others, but come on brother – you just contradicted yourself. In the early portion of this post, you said…
“Of course, many of the “sins” laid out in the Old Testament law are not applicable for us today, but we still must seek God’s wisdom based on ALL the teachings of Jesus and his disciples, not just the “love” parts.”
Which sins from the OT are no longer applicable? Who gets to decide which are applicable and which aren’t? I ask because you followed up by saying…
“It breaks my heart to think that one day an entire generation may find out that they believed in a God whose attributes were picked and chosen by someone like me.”
I’m not trying to be a jerk here… I’m really not. It just that this type of discussion drives me nuts! I’ve seen situations where It’s fine for a Deacon to be morbidly obese at 300 lbs, but we can’t have a gay couple join the church. We’ll even make jokes that said Deacon won’t go out to dinner with you unless you take him to a buffet. And it’s fine for the worship pastor to be divorced and remarried, but we can’t have a woman that had an affair teaching a Sunday School class.
Makes me crazy….
D
Damon, I’m sorry to drive you crazy. Don’t mean to. I’m sure you’ve had this discussion a million times before and I’m sorry that I’m frustrating you. It’s so hard to post all one’s thoughts on a blog without writing a book. That being said, I think we write things from our world view without realizing not everyone sees things from that view, too.
I guess for me, when it comes to assessing all of Scripture, I have to look at context. Jesus made it clear that we no longer live under “the law” but He also taught that there are some unacceptable behaviors, which, whether it be over-eating, divorce, or unfaithfulness, should be dealt with in love by someone who knows that person intimately. You’re right, inconsistency has plagued the church for years, and I’m sorry you’ve had to experience that. We humans can be so stupid at times. But we can’t send a message of love without giving the reason WHY we need God’s love.
I there were a 300 lb deacon in our church, I would get to know him as a friend, find out if he has any medical conditions which make weight-loss difficult, and see if he would accept my help to lose weight. If he realizes he has issues with food and accepts my help, I’m fine with him serving as a deacon. If, on the other hand, he defends his over-eating with excuses and no desire to change, I would explain to him, through Scripture, the necessity of keeping our bodies in shape and would recommend that he step down from leadership until he started releasing his food addiction to Jesus.
Personally, I’ve allowed gay people on my worship team. But I got to know them very well before I made that decision. The difference between me allowing them on the team or not was where they expressed to me their heart was. If they admitted they were struggling with same-sex attraction and wanted to seek God’s will to move beyond it, I was their biggest fan and advocate. They weren’t perfect but they could lead! If they defended their lifestyle and had no desire to change, it demonstrated a lack of Scriptural knowledge and repentance. In that case, I expressed to them that they needed to make some changes before they could serve; just like the person who refuses to try to stop smoking or the person who continues to cheat on his wife by defending his porno addiction. Regardless, we’re all going to have immature and rebellious moments but we have to look beyond the behavior and look at the attitude of one’s heart toward that sin. The same outward sin can have completely different responses: rebellious defense or repentant submission. Our response, like Jesus’, has to be based off of that. Both individuals are loved but one receives rebuke and instruction while the other receives grace and forgiveness.
That being said, I don’t think it’s wise to use social media as the place to offer either of these responses to public figures, whether it be grace or rebuke, because they can be confusing, misunderstood and distorted….and yet another black eye for Christ followers.
I understand where you’re coming from, Cliff. And I appreciate you taking the time and effort to further explain your position on things. To be clear, it isn’t you personally that drives me nuts. It’s the overall attitude of most Christian’s today that some sins are ‘acceptable’ while others aren’t. Unless I’ve missed something in Scripture, no sin is acceptable. Period. If any were, why would we need a Savior? His blood is the only remission for sin. End of story. Anyone that thinks they have the capacity to say, “Well, that one is OK, so you can stay”, is, in my opinion, completely and utterly confused.
The best example of my frustration occurred a couple of weeks ago when a good friend of mine (who happens to attend the same church I do) found out that someone that recently joined the church is gay. This person was furious, stating they couldn’t understand how the pastor’s could even allow them in the door, much less actually let them join the church. When I asked, “is there anything that would make it OK for them to be here?”, they replied, “if they repent and turn from their evil lifestyle, they can stay”. Alright… so what about our worship pastor that is divorced and remarried to a woman that is also divorced? This person’s response – “They’ve repented of that, so they’re fine”. Wait…. the gay guy has to repent AND turn, but the divorcee only has to repent? Forget that they’re a pastor for a minute – it’s OK for them to stay in what the Bible clearly says is a sinful relationship? I didn’t get an answer to that last question. This same person threw away their Gungor CDs. I decided not to push my luck and didn’t mention that they weren’t taking the Bible literally either.
I know I’m speaking generically and that this attitude doesn’t applied to all Christians. Unfortunately, I think it is valid for the majority of Christians though. Somewhere along the line, folks decided what is and is not acceptable when it comes to sin. In some instances, those decisions are contrary to what Scripture tells us. Yet we wonder why so many people think Christians are judgmental, close-minded and crazy.
D
Wow! What a list of varying views! I can’t add much, but just a thought and a Hillsong throwback!
David, I wanted to thank you so much for that line:
“We can still sing Vicky Beeching’s worship songs. We can be strengthened and inspired by her powerful intellect.
We can still draw near to Christ through Gungor’s music. We can still be influenced by Mark Driscoll’s preaching. No matter how imperfect they all are, it doesn’t negate their ministry.”
I’ve been struggling with this idea ever since the story behind Hillsong and the song “Healer” came out. I had seen the Spirit move in awesome ways while leading that song. I had seen a sermon series based on the truths of that song shake the foundation of a church. I saw a guy come forward and repent of his sin and confess Jesus during that song.
And then I saw a youtube video. I haven’t seen that song on our setlist since.
I’ve struggled with that, you know? How could the Spirit have led me to choosing that song so many times? How could God have used that song so mightily in His bride and then it was as if He Himself had been blindsided by the breaking story? Didn’t He already know what Guglielmucci had been going through? The sin that was (quite outwardly as well as inwardly) eating away at him?
Surely God wasn’t mistaken in all this? Are we only allowed to use what we know to be completely from a pure and righteous heart?
To all that I say hogwash. I think God has done incredible stuff through Driscoll and Vicki and Gungor and all these folks. I think He’s going to keep on doing awesome things through the ministries they’ve had, and I pray that they will repent from these things, which will bring God EVEN MORE GLORY!!!!
Since when are WE leading worship because WE are perfect?
Since when are WE teaching His word because WE are completely repentant?
Since when are WE writing songs because WE are blameless?
Since when are WE deserving to lead HIS people?
Psh. Since never my friends.
Thanks Mr. Santistevan. You’re the bomb man. Keep on keeping on.
Judd, I can’t agree with you more (both my wife and I). I’d swear we wrote the words, and used the scriptures as well. Damon says that if we all believed or did what the bible says to do, the churches world wide would be empty. Irwin Lutzer said, “It’s better to be divided over truth, than united over error”. I’d rather be in a church that has five sheep in it, than a church that has 10,000 goats. God will always have a remnant. Judd my friend, you are a remnant. I know this comment comes late after the initial writing of the article, but I hope you check back and find my response.
“Damon says that if we all believed or did what the bible says to do, the churches world wide would be empty.”
Drew – that isn’t what I said. I said, if you take everything in the Bible literally, every church in the world would empty. And I was specifically referring to the passage that Judd cited:
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (ESV)
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
This passage is telling us to disassociate with sinners, correct? Some specific sins are listed, but I think the intent is fairly clear. Since every one of us is a sinner, how are we supposed to take this literally? Salvation doesn’t make us perfect; it makes us forgiven. We still sin though. We don’t have the capacity not to sin. For that reason, we cannot take this passage literally. If we did, none of us would ever leave the house.
To take it a step further, let’s look at another passage:
Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
1 Corinthians tells us to judge each other (Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?). Luke tells us not to judge anyone. We can’t do both, so which one are we going to take literally?
D
As I have been reading the comments over the past weeks I Have noticed something interesting. Most of us want to separate Jesus from the Old Testament as though He had nothing to do with it. Lest we forget, Jesus wrote Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. It was Jesus who created man in His image. Jesus Himself said, Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” He also said that He did not come to destroy men’s lives but to give them life. John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” Every time he encountered someone that had given into temptation, He told them to go and sin no more. We cannot separate Jesus from the Law. He wrote it and fulfilled it.
Excellent post. I will be dealing with some of these issues
as well..