[This post is part of a new series on “The Christian Musician“. Check out the rest of the posts here.]
We all have our influences.
No one is self-made. Every artistic achievement, all heroic creativity has its influence.
But as Christians, is it OK to be influenced by anything?
Or are some influences killing us?
I’ve been loving our discussion on the Christian musician. On a recent post, a reader of this blog left an interesting comment. He said:
“I find it interesting the fact that, when asked for influences, no Christian artist is cited. No Tomlin, McMillan, or anything. It was all mainstream stuff. Not saying that’s bad. Good stuff is good stuff, no matter who makes it. Just something to make note of.”
That got me reflecting on my influences.
The Power Of Influence
Influence is unavoidable. We are all being influenced every day, all day long and we are influencing every day, all day long.
The people we choose to hang out with. The books we read. The music we listen to.
I suppose it could be said: we are the sum of our influences. My creativity is what it is today because of my influences.
Influence is everywhere. You are reading this blog today because someone probably told you about it. Influence.
You are a worship leader today because of someone else’s passion for it. Influence.
You love what you love and spend your time the way you do because you’ve been influenced.
Is Anything OK…really?
But when it comes to influence, is anything OK? Is it possible to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” when it comes to questionable entertainment?
What about these grey areas? The Bible doesn’t say, “Thou shalt only be influenced by Christian music or books or food or coffee or airplanes.”
I know that retreating to our safe, Christian subculture isn’t always the best answer, either.
These are the questions up for discussion today. Is it OK to have influences such as Kanye West or Jay-Z and a host of others? Over time, do those influences have a subtle effect on our spirits and numb our hearts to the truth?
Is it really possible to look past the lyrics to be inspired by the beat?
Your mother would probably say “no”. But all your friends are moshing at the concerts.
But does it kill our closeness with Christ?
Does it dampen our spirits?
Have we become desensitized to holiness?
I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Question: Who are your biggest influences? Is it OK to be influenced by artists who blatantly contradict the Word of God? Contribute to the discussion in the comments!
I love this topic and hearing other people’s opinions.
I personally think that it is OK to be influenced by secular music. With a few exceptions, it is exponentially better. I feel like Christian music “just has to be good enough for Jesus”. It would be nice if artists could embrace the power of the greatest, most creative being ever (God) and put out some, earth-shattering music.
For people out there who don’t think it isn’t OK to be influenced by secular music – are these same people only watching Christian movies and TV shows too and only being influenced by them?
Jesse, I love your thoughts. I think the deeper tension is is it OK to be influenced by secular artists whose content is trash? Or does that kill our relationship with Jesus in subtle ways? What do you think?
Jesse, this is something I’ve been struggling with. I dont’ listen to Kanye or Jay-Z, but laughed at shows like the Office (that’s what she said). So to answer your question, I used to watch some mainstream TV shows, but quit for the same reason I don’t listen to Eminem or FloRida.
I guess the question to ask is, even if you dub that music or TV as entertainment, is it worth entertaining yourself with things that can affect your relationship with Christ, and even more so, you’re ability to truly be Christ-like?
Too often “Christian Culture” responds to the more prominent sub-culture and “Secular world”. Its a sad reality, but often times our product is a bi-product of Satan’s and/or someone else’s innovation and creativity.
My thoughts? I think too often as Christian Artists OR Worship Leaders stop developing their gifts and settle with what they already know. That’s why we get the standard 6, 4, 1, 5 Chord progressions in G. Their is no exploration of musical possibilities, rather we get stuck in the box. David had a tabernacle’s worth of worship leaders playing for Him. I might add it says, “skilled and trained.” We have a responsibly to know and gain knowledge; develop our gifts. An irresponsible worship leader stops developing their gift and most do not challenge the Status quo of Christendom worship.
I’m not saying I don’t do this because I do this myself, but the challenge is when will we do something about it?
A great example of secular influenced worship is Lincoln Brewster. He took what he knew and used it for the Lord’s glory. But it shouldn’t stop there.
How can we as the body of Christ access His divine and innate creative Spirit? I think He’s waiting for someone to ask Him for it. Let’s explore for His glory. Practice and develop for His glory.
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy. | Psalm 33: 3
Michael – I love your reply. Word
What would happen if we all did this – if we asked for a deeper sense of God’s creativity?
Great things, sir, great things.
Amen
I would say that the Creator could give us more creative innovation and inspiration than any song or other influence.
Why compromise our standards while settling for second-best?
I think music by Christian artist is really starting to get better. Mat Kearney, MuteMath, John Mark McMillan have put out albums that I have really enjoyed.
That being said music labeled CCM is pretty much tepid and predictable. You hear one Casting Crowns album you heard them all and that’s enough for me.
I think a lot of Chrisitians like predicable.
There is a shift going on where Christians are pushing the boundaries of Art and music and that is a good thing. Gungors new album is breathtaking. For me it’s album of the year. Even better than Coldplays new album.
Gungor gives me hope.
What is it that separates great secular music from predictable Christian music? What is Gungor doing that is unique? Just curious as to your thoughts, Al.
Gungor is definitely pushing past predictable, creative boundaries. I laughed out loud to their song “God is not a white man”, and I plan to intro “Beautiful Things” to our congregation soon.
If you’re asking if it’s acceptable for a Christian musician to be influenced by secular music, I would say absolutely. But there has to be exceptions. Artists like Kanye and Jay-Z are about as worldly as it gets. Their music is littered with sex, alcohol, materialism, and contain a significant amount of swearing.
My question would be, how can a “Christian” artist maintain the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16; Phil. 2:5) and truly focus on things that are pure, noble, and honorable (Phil. 4:8) while listening to that?
How can we be a genuine living sacrifice and be sure to not mimic the behaviors and thoughts of this world while listening to that stuff (Rom. 12:1-2)?
Paul considered everything else a loss and the things of this world to be crap compared to knowing Jesus, so why should we place value on such things (Phil. 3:8)
I listen to secular music all the time, but we have to have boundaries. If Christ got ahold of our iPods, would we be embarrassed by what he’d find?
Not to mention we’re supposed to be leaders in the church. Our influence on people can be indirectly affected by what the observe us doing. Isn’t our listening to Kanye and Jay-Z is giving them a free pass to do the same?
Sorry to preach/rant/ramble on. And sorry for the long reply. I look forward to the discussion.
Strong word here, Ryan. Any responses?
I just started a mini blog series on this topic. If you’d like to read it, feel free to stop by.
http://creativeworshiper.com/2011/11/10/personal-convictions/
I’m on board…
As an older guy on this subject…I’m 43…most bands I would call my influences are long since gone. I was a big hair metal guy in the 80’s. I loved early christian rock artists too like PETRA, ALLIES, WHITEHEART. I’ve even headed back to listening to some of the 70’s music I heard when I was young. I have enjoyed a great deal of music in my life and enjoy various types of music now. I think one thing that has influenced most artists and worship leaders though is other people’s opinions inside the church and on christian radio. Unfortunately, we allow the opinions of others to influence us to play it safe. I’ve heard many a song on christian radio that when that awesome lead guitar was ready to come through my radio, the song went to another chorus. What!! No solo!! I think that could be why christians artists decide to play outside the church. There they have a freedom they’ve not experienced before. Some of the groups that I find influential to me now are guys like David Crowder and Aaron Shust. I agree though, that christian music has a sometimes monotonous feel to it. I was noticing the other day how many worship songs seem to revolve around the same few chords. That’s why groups who seem to step outside those boundaries seem to have a fresh approach.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Jeff. I’m only 27 but I’ve heard my fair share of Petra 😉
I think you hit on something unique to Christian music – we play it safe. What do you think are the aspects of Christian music that are “safe” and what can we do to break new ground? Sorry for all the questions, but I love learning from commenters!
I think for a lot of worship leaders, just getting to play something other than hymns is a stretch. I remember the original debate over whether drums could be used in the church.
For years the church has held onto tradition in the name of ‘convictions’. Even as the next generation desires change, there is the play it safe mentality that keeps them bound. It’s almost like we need to unlearn what we think about music and allow God to teach us what it is all about.
I remember when we started Crosspoint Church, we decided to go with a rock type worship. Most people in our area were amazed that we could play that in church. Even folks who had never been to church felt that way.
Unfortunately, church influence through the years has not been about freedom in Christ, but what you can and can’t do. We, as musicians, are even afraid to talk about groups we enjoy for fear of what someone else may deem appropriate.
I remember being at a christian college years back. The college radio station even had some christian rock albums, however on the back were marked the one or two songs you could actually play on their station.
I think to break some of the ‘safe’ mentality, we need to step outside our comfort zones. If we can begin to write music to God and not fear backlash from ‘christian’ folks, I think it could be a step in the right direction.
You’ve got me thinking about what my comfort zones are. Hmmm…
This brings up an interesting point – not to distract from the main discussion, but it might be a good thread sometime to talk about how complex is too complex for a worship song or set. I can completely understand and relate to the need for artistic expression, but I always wonder about that tension that comes with not leaving the congregation in the dust – how artistic can we get while holding to the objective of leading people to the place of encounter?
Again, really should be a thread on a separate post, but worth discussing 🙂
Good idea, Shane. I think it depends on your congregation. I would be inspired by highly creative worship with a lot of risk taking. But other, less musical people might be totally confused.
Good topic David…
But lets face it…
One one sits around thinking to themselves and says..,”hey, i want my new albums to sound like Kanye or Jay-z, or lady Gaga, or pitbull..LOL…
No one….i would hope. lol….
Artist who listen to them (those mentioned above…and J-lo..maybe) really ENJOY THEM….and thats where I see the problem…
How can you be a Chritian Artist and ENJOY LISTENING TO THE LYRICAL GARBAGE…
We say we don’t listen to the words (cause lets face that too…it’s hard to understand)…but we know them by heart…i don’t have to listen to the whole thing to know that it’s about shaking your half naked booty on the dance floor for the world to want you sexually….woe…didn’t mean to get to real there…
I think you have to be careful.
Just like you are what you eat.
Just like you are what you see. (tv)
It’s the same….YOU are what you listen too…
In my most humble Opinion…
“How can you be a Chritian Artist and ENJOY LISTENING TO THE LYRICAL GARBAGE…”
Arny hit the head on the nail here.
But I guess a lot of Christians are ok justifying their behavior when they can cite “personal convictions” right?
But is it possible to “not enjoy” or condone lyrical garbage while appreciating what an artist is doing? Does the same argument apply to whether or not you’ll hang out with non christian people?
David…we are talking about the response people give to their “Influences” right?
You didn’t say, can our music sound like what’s popular or like secular music…
I can tell you…hey…my music is hip hop…kinda sounds i guess like kanye…(but i don’t listen to kanye…he is not my influence as a songwriter…i just like that beat of that genre…)
If kanye was my influence, that that would shape my mind body and spirit…and it would show in my songwriting…which would not be very christian…(maybe on the outside…but not on the inside spiritually…)
There is a difference…
We are talking about influence…not what is popular…
If we are talking about influnence…then I don’t believe we can seperate the enjoy part and appreciating part…we are attatched to our influences…
If we are talking about Popular music…then yes…you can enjoy that kind of genre…like hip hop or Rock…with out being influence by those kinds of artist…There are some good artist out there in secular relms in those genres…look for um…
(probably difficult to find them in mainstream radio)
So I suppose we can appreciate the artistic triumph of an artist without a steady diet of it. That’s probably where I’m at. I can appreciate the skill artists have but listening to it for entertainment dries up my spirit, if that makes sense.
Right now, Galatians 5:9 is in my mind: A little leaven leavens the whole lump… I’ve been in the camp of “I’m disgusted by some of entertainment I used to embrace, yetI can appreciate the artistry even as I grow spiritually away from worldly things.” It’s possible but from personal experience, it is dangerous and can make us stumble. Because we are then saying in effect: I can handle the devil’s wiles on my own. I can hold that burning log without a blister.
We aren’t meant to shut the world out completely. I’m an artist, so I know other artists enjoy good art as I do. Including secular, and admittedly even art that vexes the Spirit from time to time–just because the artist was that talented and/or charismatic.
But as mentioned above, there have to be some limits. E.g: We all know that Gaga is as antichrist as it gets. (If you don’t, get to researchin’.) She paid homage to Judas, the most evil spirit out there! So if someone claims the Bible as his/her footing but supports/consumes that kind of art regularly, is that person really saved? Do they know what they’re doing?
I loved “Avatar,” and I didn’t become a tree-hugging, Gaia- worshiping eco-terrorist. I engaged issues on both sides of the question, though… the movie made me think.
Worship music is different from other kinds. We want average people to be able to participate, and that puts considerable restriction on it. It’s a worthy challenge… art is, by definition, a series of choices… the process of “this note, not that note; this word, not that word,” thousands of times, is what makes a song.
Ed, very well said. I think restraint needs to placed on worship music for pastoral reasons. I suppose it depends on who your congregation is, too. If your leading worship for a bunch of cool, hipster Christians, you could probably get away with more risks. For others, they wouldn’t know what to do.
What exactly is a cool hipster Christian? There is something about that tag that bothers me. Was Christ a cool hipster? I know I can be difficult. I wrestle with ambiguity and I like to know what people mean. If it is about reaching people where they are at, I understand. If it is about being cool, hip “and” Christian, who are we trying to impress?
Don, I was simply using a sarcastic phrase for those who are used to being in church – they know what to expect, and are always on the cutting edge of what is happening in the church subculture.
Thanks for bothering to reply. Sometimes it is hard to recognize tone in the written word. I struggle with that in my own writing. I fear it sounds way more harsh than intended. I have really enjoyed your blogs. I have read a lot of them I feel unqualified to comment on, but I am beginning to recognize some of your regular contributors.
Love this discussion.
Now let me just say secular music can be just as predictable as ccm… Nickleback smh
What seperates great music from good music whether Christian or secular comes down to a couple key ideas
Creativity- the Beatles modeled this that each album should have its own unique sound.
Honesty- lyrics are key. Bob Dylan doesn’t have the greatest voice but his lyrical content is genius. This is where many Christian artists fail because the shy away from dialoguing their sinful side.
Presence- Bono and Lady Gaga both know how to bring the music to life and “work” the audience. It’s a tension that worship leaders need to manage but when it is done right it adds to the experience
What gungor does on his latest album is create a concept album that deals with deep spiritual concepts with great musical and classical arrangements with a touch of hipster pop that beautiful almost did buy not quite.
Great musical artist do not play it safe.
Well said, Al. This is food for thought! I guess it comes down to not just creating for what’s in demand but taking creative, gutsy risks.
I think it comes down to being honest, and being yourself. God created you unique, so your opinions/ideas can only be expressed by you.
Thanx Dave! Whenever you play to the crowd you fail. In worship, music, or anything creative.
I hear ya josh. I’m with you bud.
Great post. Like Ryan, I’m also reminded of Phil 4:8.
But I feel everyone has a different ability to “filter” how they are affected by the media bombardment that surrounds us today, whether it’s music, film, books or TV. For example, a songwriter may hear a Jay-Z track and truly walk away with a great new groove idea, whereas another may hear a lyric in the same song that leads them to a place of lust.
The key, in my opinion, is having a keen awareness of the effect that media has on our walk with Christ. I believe we need to constantly be asking the question: “Am I being affected by this media in a way that moves me closer to Christ or farther away?” I also realize self-assessment like this can be difficult, so protecting our minds through prayer and accountability is vital defense.
That’s a great question, Jamie. I find that very helpful. We need to be able to turn away from media that is harming our spirits. Such a tension here!
I agree with you, Jamie. But even as leaders and more “mature” Christians, if we can filter out the bad from the good, doesn’t listening to music like Jay-Z and Kanye communicate to other “less mature” believers that this music is acceptable?
Ryan – it sounds like the concern is more about “less mature” believers perceiving the lyrics (not the arrangments, mind you) as acceptable, and less about whether leaders can filter out the bad from the good.
While I don’t carry stuff like Kanye and Jay-Z on my iPod, I honestly think it depends on why I might have the music in the first place. If I’m using it as workout music to get me going, then yeah, there are definitely better options, and I would expect a check in my spirit from God that I should think about taking it off my iPod. However, if I’m using it for God-directed research to understand why Kanye and Jay-Z get such a draw to orient myself with a people group God has called me to reach, then that’s different.
If I’m truly led of the Lord to get this music and listen to it, He obviously must have a reason, and He has promised in His word to give me grace and mercy in my time of need. If I’m concerned about what the weaker brothers will do, I can also ask and trust Him to reveal to me how to handle this and not cause them to stumble in the process.
Granted, I wouldn’t go looking for trouble and just voluntarily expose myself to these lyrics, which is partly what I think you’re hitting on here. However, if He tells me to buy it, Scripture assures me that He will not allow me to be tempted “beyond what I can handle”. God would have to tell me clearly to buy it, but He wouldn’t call me into that situation without also giving me the grace and mercy to help in time of need.
I’d also have to agree with Jamie – I personally know people who can listen to this stuff just enough to get the groove ideas and not be affected by lyrics. Now, I think your “spidey sense” is accurate as far as the need to be in a situation where everyone agrees that you’re not condoning the lyrics or the general message from these artists, and that everyone is mature enough not to let themselves be influenced, but I do think it’s doable.
If you’re convicted that the “less mature” believers you’re trying to lead will call it acceptable if they know you’re listening to it, then don’t listen to it, and look for other creative resources.
However, I also don’t think it’s appropriate to treat every situation the same, because they aren’t. I can talk about things with more mature believers that I can’t with my weaker brothers because I don’t want to trip up the “babes in Christ”. So what do I do? I wait until I’m in a context where it’s not possible to trip them up, and then I talk about that stuff. If you absolutely can’t do it, then obviously you can’t do it. But not everybody’s faced with that.
I think it boils down to a question of where we can see the sacred in the “secular.”
For example, I love zombie movies, books, and the tv show “the walking dead.”
I process this by always asking while I watch or listen. Can the God of the universe somehow speak through this?
In my experience, he has always revealed something to me about my own nature to br wary of or domething about himself to ponder and emulate.
Can God use “dexter,” to redeem people? I would say “yes.” Wheni think of all of the spiritual (overt and covert) themes in tjat show, I am.overwhelmed at the opportunity God gives us to speak to it with our friends or family who may never darken the door of our church, or our local christian bookstore.
However, do I think that we as Christian musicians, artists writers no matter our forum need to raise the bar a la Gungor? That would be a resounding, yes!”
Julie, I love how mindful of God you are in your entertainment. I think many of us miss this. But how far is too far? When does engaging in certain entertainment become sin? Or does it ever?
I think engaging in certain entertainment becomes sin when what we are doing with it grieves the Holy Spirit.
I think that if my thoughts toward whether or not sex outside of marriage is wrong were swayed in the other direction, and I was influenced by whatever media to think or believe anything other than what the Bible has clearly told me, then it becomes sin.
Same goes for murder. Do I still believe that murder is wrong even though my heart goes out to someone lost and dying in the character of “Dexter?” yes. And, that discussion may plant some seed in one of my lost friends or family members for God to work with and redeem.
So, I guess the short answer is that I have to take it on a case by case basis and listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to me through scriture and prayer.
Julie, I think I see what you’re saying here, but I’m not sure I agree. Don’t you think the message of the Gospel is powerful enough on it’s own?
I’m all for creative illustrations, but I don’t think God needs us to complicate the simplicity of the Gospel through compromising means just to get the message out. It’s not really our job as Christians to convince people to follow Christ. Aren’t we just supposed to tell people who he is, why he died, and leave the conviction part up to the Holy Spirit?
But isn’t the point of Art to show Truth in differing ways or perspectives? The fullness of the Gospel cannot be contained to one method of delivery.
I absolutely agree with you on this Josh, but being creative in our presentation of the gospel is very different than allowing sinful seeds to be sown in our spirit because of the content of the music we listen to.
This is a helpful discussion. One that I hope we can facilitate in our home. So many things inspire music, and music is powerful. He is so much more than the music and His power and presence can shine. Our lives reflect his effect on us. Music and media that takes away from our emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual health seems to me a lot like drinking too much, illegal drug use. Just not worth the price compared to a helpful prescription or sex as it is meant to be enjoyed by two people. The reality of God is better than imitations, and there is not a limit to his amazingness and scope and range. It is our eyes and ears and mouths that are the problem a lot, at least it is for me.
First off, some of my most recent musical influences have been “Jimmy Eat World”, “Coldplay”, “Angels & Airwaves”, “The Reign Of Kindo”, “MuteMath” and “Ke$ha” to name a few. Im also pretty excited for the new “Elevation Worship” album that comes out next week. From the few things i’ve heard of it online i’m thinking its gonna be pretty good.
For me personally i dont find music to influence me in a negative way and my reasoning for this is because im on guard for it. I like Blink 182, but i don’t feel that it has influenced me in a negative way, or severed my ties to Jesus or something like that. Im on guard for it, i know that what they sing about is wrong, but musically and melodically i like it. Same thing with Kanye and Jay-Z, no one would call them wholesome, thus it minimizes the negative effect they may have on you. For me its the subtle things that influence me in a negative way, not the blatant F bombs and talk of drinking, drugs, etc.
Its possible for a “Secular” song to glorify God, where a “Christian” song may fail. Many times we think that the song that will glorify God is the one that tells you that that is what it is going to do, but thats not neccesarily true. When i hear Slash shred or Atom Willard on drums i think of God even though they may not. Thats the beauty of music, it is universal yet it in interpreted differently by all who may hear or feel it.
Another Question is what is the music inspiring or influencing you to do? If it influences you in a musically creative way only, then its perfectly fine. I don’t think being influenced musically is ever a bad thing, but if you come to me with a new song idea talking about getting drunk at church, well, then i will not help you with it Dave.
Well said, Socrates…I mean, Christian 😉
You open up an even deeper discussion here. How do we glorify God with music? Does content matter in a secular song that glorifies God? Does a Kanye West, sex-filled, explicit, beautifully performed song glorify God?
Another question is, are you being blinded by the music you like? You may think it doesn’t affect you, but maybe it does? I’m not judging because I listen to a lot of secular music as well. I just wonder sometimes if my relationship with Jesus suffers because of it. It’s not often I listen to secular music and erupt in praise to God. But that’s just me.
I’m not sure I’m following you here, Christian. Are you saying that Jay-Z and Kanye are glorifying God with their songs?
And you wrote “i know that what they sing about is wrong, but musically and melodically i like it.”
You don’t think that swearing and sinful lyrical content is enough reason to not listen to artists like that? Isn’t that like saying, “I’m going to watch this pornographic movie because of the acting and the artistic directing – the nudity is wrong, but it inspires me creatively so I can justify it.”
Music that helps us laugh and connect and understand selves and each other better is kind of the fabric of communities.
Hear Hear, David! This is definitely good stuff to sharpen the iron on.
I’m reminded of this famous question:
“Why should the devil have all the good music?”
Hang on– it gets a little wordy….
Whether it’s Jay-Z, Kanye, Coldplay, Taylor Swift, Coltrane, Rev. Al Green, Joe Satriani, or any other current or legendary artists out there, there are different styles of music that speak to different people, each with their own sets of influences.
I’m not saying that certain songs (note that I did not say “arrangements”) out there aren’t the best choices for me to put in my personal playlist, but that’s the lyrics. The arrangements, however, are a different matter altogether. Guys like Kanye and Jay-Z come up with some ridiculous (“good” ridiculous :-)) loops and sound combinations that I know I would have never thought of.
Do I enjoy or condone their lyrics? No. Can I appreciate what they’re doing regardless? Absolutely.
To illustrate this point a little better, we talk about Tomlin and McMillan, but who are Tomlin and McMillan’s influences? And what about the artists before them, and so on? If you go back far enough, I guarantee that you’ll see some 1950s Rock n’ Roll artists in the timeline.
Rock n’ Roll was widely regarded by the church as “the devil’s music” when it first came out, and it was partly because of “garbage lyrics”. Yet, we have a great respect for bands like Delirious, who pioneered the modern worship movement while ultimately being influenced by Rock n’ Roll artists and using the same drum kits and electric guitars that were previously banned by the church.
Can you imagine what amazing musical genius and ancestry we might have denied artists like Tomlin, McMillan, and Delirious if we hadn’t stopped black-listing rock and banning rock instruments as a church during the Jesus movement, and if we hadn’t started learning to love and accept “edgy” people who didn’t “fit the mold”?
Note that I’m not saying we condone sin. We are to hate sin, but we are also to love the sinner.
I see what you’re saying, Cheyne, but didn’t Paul say we were to be imitators of Christ?
So by the standards that you’re talking about, wouldn’t that mean that Christ himself would find Kanye and Jay-Z acceptable to listen to and necessary for the sake of creative inspiration?
Well, first, God is the Creator, and therefore Kanye and Jay-Z wouldn’t be necessary for His creative inspiration. 🙂
To be sincere, our natural man would logically conclude that “therefore, we don’t need to listen to Kanye or Jay-Z for creative inpsiration.” Sure, if God is leading a person toward another source for that.
But what if God specifically told someone to pick up Kanye or Jay-Z and listen to it?
“But He wouldn’t do that.”
Really? He does stuff outside our logical box of understanding all the time – someone once said that ‘God offends the mind to reveal the heart’. I mean, he spoke to Balaam through a donkey.
I dont’ see how we can definitively argue from Scripture that God wouldn’t tell someone to listen to an album with explicit lyrics on it when He is in the business of leading people into situations that don’t make sense. For example, He told Abraham to prepare Isaac on the altar as a sacrifice. We know instinctively that killing our own children is wrong (we proclaim that message every day when we advocate pro-life), and Abraham had this conviction as well, yet he obeyed God’s commandment because God is the Lord.
“But God provided the ram in the thicket.”
Sure, because God was using it to reveal to Abraham that He would provide. And He rewarded Abraham’s obedience in spite of an offense to his understanding of how God works. (Note that, while offended, he did not sin by trying to save his son’s life.)
“God wouldn’t contradict Himself.”
Of course not, but who are we to logically argue to God how He has contradicted Himself? Look at His response to Job. His ways are higher than ours, and sometimes He continues to keep things a mystery, but He will do it in such a way that He shows Himself to be consistent, and in such a way that He is not leading us into a level of temptation that we cannot handle.
“What’s your point?”
It’s not for us to create a formula, especially when not every situation is equal. If I meet someone who firmly believes God led them to pick up a Kanye or Jay-Z album, naturally I’m going to ask them why. However, the Lord may actually persuade me (or tell me) that He’s in this and that there’s a God-directed purpose behind it. Or He may just say, “trust Me” like He essentially did to Abraham.
I’m not suggesting that we just throw ourselves into a compromising position by picking up an explicit album. I’m saying that, if God truly directs to us to do something that takes us into a potential “lion’s den”, He will provide a means for making sure that we and others around us are protected from sin and compromise, because He’s omniscient and can see far beyond what we’re able to see.
Long answer, but there you go.
God redeems what was once used for evil and turns it around for His glory, right?
Bingo.
Ryan, of course I believe the gospel is plenty powerful. Nowhere did I state the gospel wasn’t powerful enough.
I understand what you are saying. But we’ll have to agree to disagree that what I am talking about complicates the message. I also disagree that I am compromising my standards in the way in which this is carried out. Paul used the monument to an unknown god
to communicate the gospel. This did not diminish its power.
It is about building relationships with people. Jesus immersed himself in the culture without allowing his sinlessness to be compromised.
I am far from sinless, as I am sure is the case with many, I would venture to say ALL of us reading and contributing to this blog. But, I try to live in a way that is pleasing to my Creator. And, I think what pleases and displeases Him is a matter of my relationship with Him. When he convicts me through prayer, scripture and relationships with godly friends, I find direction.
Thusfar, I have not been convicted for warching this show and engaging with others in conversation about it.
Just to clarify, I was not saying that the music doesn’t effect me in a negative way if i listen to something unwholesome. I’m simply saying that when you are on your guard against specific artists it is much becomes much easier to guard yourself against their music also.
Now to you Ryan…
you may note my line, “When i hear Slash shred or Atom Willard on drums i think of God even though they may not.” What that means is that they may not intentionally glorify God themselves whenever they play or write a song, but if something is performed with musical exselence and creativity a christian ought to look to where that ability came from and see even how much bigger our God is to the incredible abilities he has given instead of constantly filtering everything out and putting a label across secular music as “unwholesome”. This many times doesn’t show the sign of a cautious christian but an immature one and In reality you are preventing yourself from being inspired and being able to give 100% of your creativity to God. So yes, Kanye’s song can bring praise to God for those who can hear it. And we as christians ought to be able to hear past the profanity.
Let me say this: I don’t think sinful content is enough reason to rule any complete genre of music out. If we rule sinful content out completely then we don’t watch anything and we don’t go anywhere. That sounds extreme but if you play that game you can’t pick and choose what sinful content you’d like to keep in and what to keep out because it is convenient. What we need to do is watch our own witness and lives and make sure that we are not doing anything sinful, else we end up leading the lives of these musical people that are on subject.
I couldn’t name you 5 Kanye songs or even one Jay-Z song. I think Ke$ha is incredibly catchy. I listen to the same 3 songs of hers over and over again to try to capture the excitement of the musicality. I see past what she has let herself become to notice that God gave her whatever ability she has and i commend her for utilizing it. She hasn’t taken the same road i would with music, and its disappointing that she is not glorifying God, but her song still can if it makes me think of him.
and i spelled excellence wrong…
That is unacceptable, Christian. I don’t allow spelling errors here 🙂
Ok, let’s get a definition: “influence” is something that informs your musical style and/or likes/dislikes in musical preference. It is not condoning the particular artist’s execution (lyrics, etc), or the artist’s lifestyle.
That said, I think mainstream music SHOULD influence Christian music. Not can, but SHOULD. If we, as Christians, ignore the rest of the word, we fail in our mission to win the world. If the world is speaking French, and we are speaking in Hebrew, they will not understand what we mean.
We need to be careful what we fill ourselves with though, too. If we are totally diggin on Kanye, with the sexual references and language, that will eventually flow from us. If we musically process his music, and *redeem* that style for the Kingdom, then we are advancing the Kingdom.
In all of this, we need spiritual discernment. You have to understand your limits and your boundaries. How many times can I listen to Ke$ha without having that suck me down? Her lyrics are “garbage”, but the beat is sick! So I understand the style I like (influence) and find alternative artists who don’t spew garbage.
Great perspective, Josh. Thanks for contributing.
Ok, Josh, I’m pickin up what you’re layin down here. You got me thinking, and your perspective on what influence really is has me thinking.
I guess my question would be is, where does one draw the line? How many times can you listen to a sex-laden song with swearing and still call it “influence”?
As an answer to where the line is: it depends (he says with a grin). Music, like most things, is on a sliding scale. Does a song become vulgar because they say this word? Or because they reference sex? If they reference sex inside of a happy marriage, is that bad? The problem with drawing lines is that there are always exceptions to consider.
For myself, if I feel uncomfortable listening to a song because it contradicts what the Bible teaches, then I shouldn’t listen regularly. Ke$ha is a good example to me. I don’t listen to her because her lyrics bother me. It feels cheap and dirty. I like her musical style, but the lyrics cannot be reconciled. But, there’s a song I really like that has an f-bomb in it. I listen to the song because I like the core message, and there is only the one word to mess it up. So, I consciously overlook that word to enjoy the song every now and again. I couldn’t listen to that all the time because I’d probably pick up the line, but I still feel influenced by that song because of the core emotions of the lyrics and song.
It’s really boils down to your definition of influence. If you take influence to mean “I want to be this person/group”, then it’s not a very good idea to be “influenced” by Kanye. But if we take the definition I put down, it becomes more a question of what things you can use in your own style.
Thanks, Josh. I think there’s some validity to what you are saying and appreciate your responses.
Thank you, sir. I do understand where you’re coming from as well, and it’s nice to have a good discussion about these things so we all grow.
Love. this. discussion!
Sorry Dave 🙂 Socrates himself was no perfect speller.
This discussion really is about “defining” a lot of things. defining “Secular music”, “Christian music”, and Influence. I like Josh’s definition of that.
I don’t particularly like listening to music that regularly swears or talks about sex and drugs, etc. However i do feel that for some, songs that contain those things may provide inspiration and/or influence, thus my stance on the question.
This is definitely a great topic and I have read with interest the many responses to this issue. I think believers should be abreast of what is current. After all God created music & art. The problem would be when the effects of the things we are influenced by tend towards stuff that don’t glorify God.
The bottom line is being led by the Holy Spirit and also asking what the objectives of listening to secular music are. If it’s simply entertainment, then you’re on the wrong road IF THE LYRICS & LIFESTYLE OF THE ARTIST IS UNGODLY. If its for research, then no biggie but even with that be careful that it doesn’t subtly creep into your subconscious.
I sincerely think that the strategy of the devil in these last days is to create stuff that is musically appealing but then lyrically unsettling. Stuff that is easier to accept but with content that pollutes.
I would say if God leads you into listening to secular artists for inspiration, go for it.
But let’s remember most secular artists out there are definitely not glorifying God but someone else. And what they want to do through their music is influence the world into sexual immorality, insecurity, not knowing your identity, spirit of control.
This is a great topic David. My husband and I often have this debate.
We can’t just give credit to one period of time to say – that right there was my influence.
I first heard music from church when I was a little girl. My next memories are from various 80’s bands that my parents would listen to (at the age of 3 I sang and danced to “Dressed for Success” by Roxette on a table in a restaurant in my small town). Next, it was all the great songs produced by Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Backstreet Boys (please forgive me…high school years!!). Then came my country phase, with Kenny Chesney and Faith Hill. Throughout college I was exposed to various rap artists, but none really ever kept my attention. After that is when I switched to Casting Crowns and MercyMe.
I can’t change my past and what I thought was “good” music. Each musician touched my artistic soul and molded me into the musician I am today. I don’t go back and listen to most of those bands anymore. However, I really don’t find issue with most artists that keep things clean – not only in their music but in their life. I don’t follow all the tabloids and gossip shows, but it is hard to miss when a certain artist can’t stay out of trouble or is promoting something that goes against my beliefs and values.
I usually just try to live by the old saying – Garbage In, Garbage Out – with not just music, but even when it comes to movies and TV shows. If your friends are a reflection of who you are, the “noise” blasting out of your speakers is as well. I want to witness to the person in the car next to me, not make them think that I’m another one of those rambunctious young hooligans.
In the end, I’m just happy to live in a country where I can freely listen to whatever I choose.
I used to be ok with listening to mainstream music, simply for a little variety, as listening to the same Christian station can get very boring (just like listening to the same mainstream station would), but also considering the fact that a lot of the Christian stations are pretty similar in style. I do tend to gravitate more toward Air 1, as it is more upbeat, but I also love worship. Recently, I have been so caught up in my precious Savior, and I just want to be focused on Him as much as possible, and I have decided to quit songwriting until I know that a song is coming straight from Him. I want it to be annointed and full of the Holy Spirit, since that is what really changes people. I’m not saying that God can’t use any song (because I have been touched by secular songs before, too), but I just want His holy annointing spilling through me. My personal conviction is from Proverbs 4:23-27 (NIV) “Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Put away perversity from your mouth; keep corrupt talk far from your lips. Let your eyes look straight ahead, fix your gaze directly before you. Make level paths for your feet and take only ways that are firm. Do not swerve to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil.” I do understand, however, that at times we can’t be so spiritual that we are no earthly good, and need to relate to those around us, especially for ministry purposes, but people who need Jesus (for that matter, who doesn’t need him! 😉 ) aren’t necessarily looking for someone who fits into the world, but someone who stands out and who is different from what the world has to offer. Please understand, I am not trying to be “holier than thou”, and sure, I probably have some false humility and pride going on, but this is just my personal conviction. Praise our incredible almighty God who has so much more to offer than the temporary highs this world has to offer!
You and your dang questions! 😉
This one is super easy to answer if we just look in the Bible.
Romans 14:14 says ‘I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.’
Paul answered simply that it is subjectively and based on the individual, and when you try and put your soul’s guidelines on another person about your preferences, then you are wading out of your territory and into somebody else’s.
So to one person it could be sin, but to another, it is not?
I think that’s a comment for the “gray area” things. Adultery is obviously a sin no matter who does it. It’s one of the 10 commandments that God decided to write into his law first. This is more like smoking. Some people don’t have a problem with it, some people do. But there’s nothing in scripture that says you shouldn’t smoke. Now, you could infer that smoking is a sin from other commands, such as keep your body clean, it’s a temple. But that’s my point. Define “clean”? Define “acceptable”? How clean is clean? If it’s bad for you in particular, don’t do it.
Hi,
I know this post is over a month old but I felt the need to weigh in as well 🙂 I am a worship leader and have been working thru these issues as well. I see a couple of things that I’ve been working thru about some of these things that might shed some light…WARNING: long post(but hopefully worth the time:) )
Christian artists are looking for influences, things to spark their creative mind. WAY back in the day, Christian artists were at the forefront of their field(none of which are flawless people 😉 ), Handel one that quickly comes to mind. Handel’s Messiah is considered a masterpiece! Now, you will see that they did not live their lives perfectly but we all know none of us do, however, the art is focused on Christ. Every artist, Christian or not during that time, could say that they were influenced by these men. Fast forward to today, what Christian artist is considered the best in their field? I would say there are a couple (Underoath is a one of the most respected and influential bands in the post modern hardcore genre, it brought my brother to Christ, it’s not my favorite genre, and it’s small, but it’s got a place) but overall, there is very little. What if the Beatles converted to Christianity? What songs would have been written for God?!
We have so many people that are redeemed, changed people! One of my electric guitarists played while on all kinds of drugs in the 80’s and is now a changed man! However, his influences are VERY evident in his playing(Randy Roads anyone?). I wouldn’t change that from him at all. It’s apart of who he is. Who does he listen to now, Lincoln Brewster. He doesn’t listen to those things from the past now. He also doesn’t like Coldplay(gasp!), JayZ or anything like that. Is he a great artist…YES! However, when he comes in to play with us, he worships! He worships thru his guitar. He loves what proclamations he makes with the body of Christ. He serves thru his playing but is true to who he is. Does a cranked marshall tone with a 10 min solo done as if we were at a Def Leopard concert work in Hillsong’s Hosanna? Nope. Can our guitarist do that? Yep, but he’s learned that his 100 watt JCM 800 doesn’t work for what we do…he’s got a Blues Jr now. This also brings up another point: I see a difference between music that is Christian and worship music. I see this is where most of us artists struggle. We want to stretch lyrical content…we want to use a dim7 chord once in a while. We want to use another meter besides 4/4 and 6/8! However, for worship music, that is corporate worship- music used to respond to what God has done in our lives, has to meet the congregation and where it’s at. We can’t leave our congregation behind! Artists are in such a different spot musically than the rest of the world…there’s a reason why there are a 100 Nickleback clones. There needs to be more artists that have Christian themed music that challenge and express ideas in new ways…it may not be for a Sunday Morning service….but where do most of our Christian artists come from…worship leaders who write for people to sing on Sunday morning. For instance, what if an artist took a deep look at what they see as challenges for the church today(relativism comes to mind) and wrote it in a non-U2/Coldplay way. It could possibly reach outside the bounds of the church walls and raise up all kinds of issues for non Christians and Christians to wrestle with…even though it was written with a Christian perspective. I feel we need more of this!
We need both music that is Christian and Worship music…I would like to see Christian music(style and lyrical content) influence Worship music. We will always have our influences before we came to Christ, but I believe there is the Great Influencer who can mold our artistic gift the way He wants it to go…I’m asking Him for guidance and influence.
Thanks for the time….I know it was long, I’ve enjoyed reading this thread!
Jeremy, thanks for taking the time to write this. Very insightful. Which do you think is struggling more – worship music or Christian music?
David I’m not sure. But if I were to dream of the ideal situation: I would love to see a “grass roots” genre of music or at least a fresh approach to a genre, that Christian’s pioneer and perfect, that in turn influences popular and worship music. I think there is some EXCELLENT Worship music(Jesus Culture puts out some good ones, Gungor and Daniel Bashta are excellent and pushing the bounds of “normal” music in worship…also All Sons & Daughters song All the Poor and Powerless is great), I also see some excellent christian music. I’m not a hip hop fan..except for this guy…Lacrae. His lyrics are O-mazing. definitely challenging the norm for Christian music, listen the song Killa-nothing groundbreaking as far as sampling/groove/track, but the poetic push of those lyrics…excellent,vs 2 especially. I think his song Gotta Know is the best all round artistic expression. To make that point, his albums are the only hip hop I own, secular or Christian. I’ve also been into Edison Glass lately.
I think the thing that is struggling most is that we are are working hard to find avenues for our lyrics more than we are on our lyrics. I feel that in both arenas(Christian music and Worship) lyrical content is a bit weak. We look for influences musically, but what’s influencing our style lyrically. That’s where I also agree that listening to secular music for just one part is missing the whole song. Now, can I learn from the way the message of the song is delivered and the lyrical strength? Yep. But I struggle with the thought that I’m just listening to this song just because I like that guitar hook or groove.
I see a push from Christian artists to strip back some things, make lyrics a bit more raw, make it sound a bit “Americana” if you will(see John Mark Mcmillan). Not a bad thing, we’ll se where it goes. Let’s just be in prayer about this, He’s moving, let’s go where He leads.
Thanks again!
Wow…so I don’t think I answered your question 🙂
If it wasnt for john mayer and the edge, i would have never had the drive to become the guitar player i am today. its all about HOW they influence you.
Good point, Caleb. How do you keep yourself from being influenced in a negative way?